This Is Not My America
Senator Dick Durbin (D-IL) spoke out against Guantanamo Bay on the Senate floor the other day, phrasing the outrage there in such stark terms that I don’t see how anyone can refute it. And yet BushCo’s loving zombies do, in fact they love it — check out the I Heart Gitmo line the boobs at Powerline are flogging.
So I’m opening up the comments to my right-wing brethren out there (I’m looking at you, Don, among others): What do you have to say about this? Can you — dare you? — defend it?
When you read some of the graphic descriptions of what has occurred here — I almost hesitate to put them in the record, and yet they have to be added to this debate. Let me read to you what one FBI agent saw. And I quote from his report:
“On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold….On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.”
If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime — Pol Pot or others — that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.
What Senator “Turban” did on the Senate floor was an outrage. He should be tried for Sedition for giving material aid and comfort to the enemy in a time of war.
With respect to what is described as “torture” at Gitmo, I will not only defend it, but say that these individuals we are holding in detention are getting much better than they would give you, me or any other infidel unfortunate enough to become their captive.
Their instruction manual of murder is the Koran, which gives them the right to CUT YOU HEAD OFF if you are their captive. Just remember Nicholas Berg and all the others these filthy vermin have murdered in the name of Allah.
These vermin would just as soon slit your throat as look at you , so I say do whatever is necessary to them short of outright and clearly definable torture. In other words, don’t leave any marks. At Gitmo we make them listen to Christina Aguilera… OH NO, not Christina! O.K., so I’m getting a little sarcastic, forgive me.
Bottom line? Take away their Korans and give them copies of books about the murder of 3,000 innocent people on 9/11.
First all of, Tim, how do you/we know the prisoners are “the enemy”? Because BushCo said so? I’ve seen reports that some of them are just average Iraqi Joes who had nothing at all to do with any fighting, but were turned in for a bounty by neighbors or rivals. Granted, most — perhaps even all — of them are “enemy,” — but how do you/we *know*?
And even if we knew with 100% certainty that they’re all bad guys (which we don’t), how does treating them badly because they’d treat us badly make us the good guys? Doesn’t that drag us down to their level? Aren’t we supposed to stand for something other than torture, abuse, oppression, and all the other things we’re supposed to be fighting but are instead practicing?
Racist thugs like you disgust me. I was going to say “make me ashamed to be an American,” but that’s not true. I’m proud to be an American — but I’m ashamed that you’re one, too. You bring dishonor on our country and for that you should be ashamed.
I’m not quite as adament as Tim about this but I do say Durbin is one of the Republican’s best buddies. He’s just like Pelosi, Boxer, Dean and the “we hate Bush and anything he does” crowd. Every time they open their mouth to put down Bush they just make the Right go farther right. They are tired of their leaders being called “Hitlers” and “liars” and such. I could certainly add more because the left is so full of hate they don’t pay any attention to what the majority of the American people feel.
I’ll say it again. The Democrats are moving farther away from the center and they will not win an election until they move back. Maybe they should just Moveon.
Hillary gets it and that’s why she’s becoming a centrist in what she says. I don’t think leopards change their spots but she’s trying.
As for what’s happening at Gitmo and the FBI report I will say this. Those prisoners are enemy combatants and we are at war. I didn’t see anything in the report that leads me to believe these people are being subjected to inhumane treatment. Treatment that I wouldn’t enjoy but I didn’t shoot at US soldiers. You’re right, we don’t know they are all bad guys. Do you think we should let the ones go that we aren’t sure of?
Maybe we should try Zoe’s idea and just give them flowers.
Don, I’ve examined my own “Bush hate” feelings and I’ve come to realize that while I really do dislike him on a visceral level — much as the Right felt about Clinton, my opposition is firmly rooted in my complete opposition to his policies. So it really isn’t that I “hate” Bush, it’s that I hate what he does — and what he stands for. Not that that matters to you — you think I just hate him, period. But just know that in my own mind I have legitimate reasons; it’s not just emotion.
Anyway… If every time we open our mouths it makes the Right go further right, then I think we’re making fine progress. They’re so busy being tired of their lying little Hitler leader being called Hitler and a liar and so busy moving even further to the right that YOU aren’t paying any attention to what the majority feel. Public opinion — that’s EVERYone, not just “the left” — is plummeting for your boy and his team. Bush’s rating is at an all-time low. Congress’ rating — a *Republican, right-wing, conservative* Congress, let me remind you — is at an all-time low.
So you folks go ahead and keep right on crab-walking to the right. Keep pursuing the Schiavo cause, “fixing” Social Security, dry-humping the “war on terror,” giving huge tax cuts to the rich while running up the biggest deficit EVER, pandering to the Christian Taliban, and doing all those other things you *think* the “majority of American people” want. I’m ready for a President and Congress who represent *me*, and you’re doing a fine job of paving its way. Thank you.
As for Gitmo… First off, it’s highly likely that some of those detained are *not* “enemy combatants,” so innocent people are being deprived of their liberty by the country that is supposed to embody its defense the most. Secondly, even if they were *all* “enemy combatants,” that doesn’t even begin to excuse what’s going on there. We are ignoring our most basic tenets in holding them without charges and without representation, and we are twisting the language in shameful ways to justify it.
So do I think we should let the ones go that we’re not sure of? Maybe. Let’s charge all of them, lets stop twisting words and apply the Geneva Convention and act like the great nation we’re supposed to be, let’s do what’s right. And if the end result is that we let some of them go, then at least we know we acted with pride and integrity and like Americans.
It’s not quite as neat and simple as “kill ’em all and let
AllahGod sort ’em out,” but there’s something you and yours have forgotten: the end does not justify the means.Ok, I’ve heard this asked of many liberals and they always seem to sidestep a yes or no answer. Let’s see how you do.
Zoe has been kidnapped by 2 bad, bad guys and you capture one of them. The one you capture won’t tell you anything except he knows she will be killed within 24 hours and there’s no ransom demand, just a joy of killing. Do you submit the guy you have to anything other than “Geneva Convention” tactics or do you employ other ways that might be thought of as barbaric? Remember, you can ply him with flowers and pleas or you can use more forceful means. What do you do?
I know what I would do and it wouldn’t involve much conversation.
Sometimes the end does justify the means.
Your scenario doesn’t fit the facts at hand. Some of the “bad guys” we caught AREN’T BAD GUYS. That’s a critical point that you neocons keep missing. But it’s not really a relevant one, though, since as I said above it doesn’t excuse our behavior.
But fine, I’ll play along. I’ll even pretend I have the right bad guy. So what do I do, personally? Every single bad thing I can think of. I cause him so much pain that he wishes he’d never been born. I do anything I can to make him talk.
But I am not a sovereign nation. I am not a signatory to the Geneva Convention. I am not a nation of laws. I am not acting on behalf of anyone but myself, and I fully expect to be held accountable for my actions. Because I would be wrong to do all those things, because they are illegal acts. “We,” the US, should’t get to do them just because we want to. We are a nation of laws, and we break those laws at our peril.
If you don’t like the laws, change them. If we break them, do the savage things they will do to us because it’s convenient or easy or even effective — or because they’d do them to us first, then we’re no better than they are.
The end does not justify the means, because it diminishes what and who we are.
Chuck,
You may have missed the news item, but we have released numerous detainess from Gitmo. We HAVE released the innocent, non-combatants that got caught up in the net.
Hey, I respect your opinions without judging you. Why can’t you extend the same courtesy to me? For the record, I’m not a racist or anything like that. I am simply one American with an opinion. I fail to see how my blogging dishonors my country. At least I didn’t stand up on the floor of the U.S. Senate and equate our brave men and women with the most murderous regimes in the World’s history.
The brave Senator’s ill-conceived rant is now a part of the official records of our Country which our enemies will use against our troops and citizens serving in foreign lands.
When you have the time, read up on the Sedition act, for the good Senator’s words and deeds fit the definition in my opinion.
Chuck,
I would also respectfully remind you that we as a nation are not breaking either our own law or the Geneva conventions with regards to the detainees at Gitmo.
Go back and research the law passed under FDR’s presidency with regards to illegal combatants. It is still the law of the land and for good reason.
The detainees at Gitmo are not P.O.W’s for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the fact we weren’t fighting a sovreign nation in Afghanistan. We simply helped the Afghans remove the thugs in power and regain control of their own destiny. There is a freely elected government there now thanks to a lot of brave people.